Wiki edit for the Phillip Johnson page

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

RonO

2024-08-04 18:25:54 UTC

The Phillip Johnson wiki page has been edited and the quote from the
Berkeley Science Review where he admitted that there was no theory of
intelligent design has been removed.

This is the WayBack link that works:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070609131601/http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&article=evolution

QUOTE:
I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design
at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the
Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully
worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that’s
comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific
people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are quite
convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for them to prove…No product is
ready for competition in the educational world.
END QUOTE:

Johnson made the admission in 2006 after the Dover fiasco. The ID perps
tried to run the bait and switch on the Dover creationist rubes, but the
ID perp responsible for making sure that the bait and switch went down
dropped the ball, and did not follow up after telling the Dover rubes
not to teach intelligent design, but they should try the obfuscation and
denial switch scam instead. The Dover rubes did not take his advice and
tried to teach the junk anyways. Phillip Johnson had, had the bait and
switch run on him the first time in 2002 in Ohio. Both He and then
senator Santorum were all for getting ID taught in the Ohio public
schools, but Meyer, Wells and a few others decided to start running the
bait and switch instead of giving the rubes any ID science to teach
(Wells included the decision to start running the bait and switch in his
report on the Ohio fiasco). The bait and switch went down on every
group of creationist rubes that wanted to teach the scam junk for the
next 3 years, but Johnson still came forward and supported teaching the
ID scam junk in Dover. He sat in the court room every day of testimony,
and after that experience gave the Berkeley Science Review interview.

The quote has been removed from the wiki artlcle for some reason. It
isn't controversial. Johnson never claimed otherwise. After
publication I think that the Panda's Thumb was the first discussion
group to put up the Johnson admission, and as far as I know Johnson
never changed his mind.

Ron Okimoto

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-08-04 21:04:01 UTC

Permalink

Post by RonO
The Phillip Johnson wiki page has been edited and the quote from the
Berkeley Science Review where he admitted that there was no theory of
intelligent design has been removed.

This was done on 18th June at 23.31 (one of many edits he did that day)
by an editor whose user name is GuardianH. Many of his edits are quite
sensible so I wonder if this was just a mistake. Anyway, I have written
to him asking him to explain. I'll let you know if anything useful
emerges.

Post by RonO
http://web.archive.org/web/20070609131601/http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&article=evolution
I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design
at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the
Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully
worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that’s
comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific
people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are quite
convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for them to prove…No product is
ready for competition in the educational world.
Johnson made the admission in 2006 after the Dover fiasco. The ID
perps tried to run the bait and switch on the Dover creationist rubes,
but the ID perp responsible for making sure that the bait and switch
went down dropped the ball, and did not follow up after telling the
Dover rubes not to teach intelligent design, but they should try the
obfuscation and denial switch scam instead. The Dover rubes did not
take his advice and tried to teach the junk anyways. Phillip Johnson
had, had the bait and switch run on him the first time in 2002 in Ohio.
Both He and then senator Santorum were all for getting ID taught in
the Ohio public schools, but Meyer, Wells and a few others decided to
start running the bait and switch instead of giving the rubes any ID
science to teach (Wells included the decision to start running the bait
and switch in his report on the Ohio fiasco). The bait and switch went
down on every group of creationist rubes that wanted to teach the scam
junk for the next 3 years, but Johnson still came forward and supported
teaching the ID scam junk in Dover. He sat in the court room every day
of testimony, and after that experience gave the Berkeley Science
Review interview.
The quote has been removed from the wiki artlcle for some reason. It
isn't controversial. Johnson never claimed otherwise. After
publication I think that the Panda's Thumb was the first discussion
group to put up the Johnson admission, and as far as I know Johnson
never changed his mind.
Ron Okimoto

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

RonO

2024-08-05 01:03:39 UTC

Permalink

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by RonO
The Phillip Johnson wiki page has been edited and the quote from the
Berkeley Science Review where he admitted that there was no theory of
intelligent design has been removed.

As far as I know Phillip Johnson never contested what was in the
article, nor retracted what he had said.

Around that time the ID perps held a 15 year anniversary celebration for
Johnson's book Darwin on Trial, and Johnson did not participate. At the
time I thought that it was strange that Johnson would not acknowledge
something done in his honor, but then this article started to be quoted
and it looked like Johnson had quit supporting teaching ID in the public
schools.

Johnson had sat in the courtroom every day and witnessed the difference
between real science (what he wanted to denigrate as "Darwinism") and
the ID scam, and he probably finally understood why the bait and switch
had been going down for the previous 3 years, and why the other ID perps
had given up on teaching ID as part of the Wedge strategy.

I think that Johnson was likely misled by the other ID perps. They
obviously didn't tell him that they were going to run the bait and
switch scam on the Ohio rubes or he would not have come out as
supporting teaching ID there back in 2002. Willful ignorance probably
allowed him to continue on, and support teaching ID in Dover when the
other ID perps were trying to get the Dover rubes to not teach the junk.
He and Santorum both had, had the bait and switch run on them in Ohio,
but both of them still supported teaching ID in Dover. It is sort of
nuts that neither of them understood why the bait and switch had to go
down in every single case where creationists wanted to teach ID. No one
had gotten the ID science to teach for 3 years of trying, and yet both
Johnson and Santorum still supported the Wedge strategy when it was
obvious that most of the other ID perps did not support teaching the
junk in Dover.

The ID perps are still selling the teach ID scam, but They claimed that
they did not support teaching ID in the public schools when the West
Virginia legislation passed, and they were not "requiring" ID to be
taught. After Dover the ID perps started to claim that the Judges
decision was wrong, and that ID could still be taught in the public
schools, but they did not want ID "required" to be taught. This was
found to be a lie back in 2013 when both Louisiana and Texas wanted ID
taught in the public schools, but neither state was "requiring" it to be
taught. The bait and switch went down anyway, so the "requiring"
modifier was never needed.

Ron Okimoto

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by RonO
http://web.archive.org/web/20070609131601/http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&article=evolution
I also donâ€™t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design
at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the
Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully
worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory thatâ€™s
comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific
people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are quite
convinced that itâ€™s doable, but thatâ€™s for them to proveâ€¦No
product is
ready for competition in the educational world.
Johnson made the admission in 2006 after the Dover fiasco. The ID
perps tried to run the bait and switch on the Dover creationist rubes,
but the ID perp responsible for making sure that the bait and switch
went down dropped the ball, and did not follow up after telling the
Dover rubes not to teach intelligent design, but they should try the
obfuscation and denial switch scam instead. The Dover rubes did not
take his advice and tried to teach the junk anyways. Phillip Johnson
had, had the bait and switch run on him the first time in 2002 in
Ohio. Both He and then senator Santorum were all for getting ID
taught in the Ohio public schools, but Meyer, Wells and a few others
decided to start running the bait and switch instead of giving the
rubes any ID science to teach (Wells included the decision to start
running the bait and switch in his report on the Ohio fiasco). The
bait and switch went down on every group of creationist rubes that
wanted to teach the scam junk for the next 3 years, but Johnson still
came forward and supported teaching the ID scam junk in Dover. He sat
in the court room every day of testimony, and after that experience
gave the Berkeley Science Review interview.
The quote has been removed from the wiki artlcle for some reason. It
isn't controversial. Johnson never claimed otherwise. After
publication I think that the Panda's Thumb was the first discussion
group to put up the Johnson admission, and as far as I know Johnson
never changed his mind.
Ron Okimoto

RonO

2024-08-22 17:49:53 UTC

Permalink

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by RonO
The Phillip Johnson wiki page has been edited and the quote from the
Berkeley Science Review where he admitted that there was no theory of
intelligent design has been removed.

Is there any response about the edit. The Johnson capitulation seems to
be required for historical accuracy and closure for Philip Johnson's
participation in the ID scam. As far as I know Johnson never retracted
his last statements about the failure of the ID creationist scam. He
made the admission after sitting in the court room every day and
observing first hand how sad their attempt had been. The ID perps never
had the science that they had gotten Johnson to believe that they had to
get the issue into the public schools. Johnson had built the Wedge
strategy around the belief that there was something real to use as the
wedge. One of the 5 year goals listed in the Wedge document was to get
10 states to teach intelligent design. If the ID perps had actually had
anything worth teaching they would have likely accomplished that 5 year
goal, but they started running the bait and switch on the creationist
rubes and refused to give them any ID science to teach in the public
schools in 2002. When Dover hit the fan the ID perps were still selling
the teach ID scam, but always ran the bait and switch and the rubes only
got their obfuscation and denial switch scam. They tried to run the
bait and switch on Dover, but failed and the ID perp who's job it was to
perpetrate the switch failed to follow up on his advice that the Dover
rubes not teach ID, but look into the obfuscation and denial switch
scam, and the Dover rubes tried to teach ID anyway, and tried to use Of
Pandas and People to teach the junk just like the ID perps were
recommending. Phillip Johnson supported teaching ID in Dover. The ID
perps had a list of creationist legislators and school boards that they
claimed had adopted the switch scam or were still considering adopting
the switch scam. There were probably over 20 examples on that list, and
Ohio was the only one that had adopted the switch scam junk at that
time. Most of the others had dropped the issue when the bait and switch
went down. I recall only Louisiana and Texas as adopting the switch
scam after Dover, but Tennessee gets mentioned in some articles. I've
never heard of Tennessee doing anything about the switch scam in their
public schools.

The quote belongs in the Johnson wiki. I found several examples where
it had been quoted after publication, and no evidence of retraction by
Johnson.

Ron Okimoto

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

RonO

2024-08-05 18:41:55 UTC

Permalink

Post by RonO
The Phillip Johnson wiki page has been edited and the quote from the
Berkeley Science Review where he admitted that there was no theory of
intelligent design has been removed.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070609131601/http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=10&article=evolution
I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent design
at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative to the
Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might contain, a fully
worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design theory that’s
comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job of the scientific
people that we have affiliated with the movement. Some of them are quite
convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for them to prove…No product is
ready for competition in the educational world.
Johnson made the admission in 2006 after the Dover fiasco. The ID perps
tried to run the bait and switch on the Dover creationist rubes, but the
ID perp responsible for making sure that the bait and switch went down
dropped the ball, and did not follow up after telling the Dover rubes
not to teach intelligent design, but they should try the obfuscation and
denial switch scam instead. The Dover rubes did not take his advice and
tried to teach the junk anyways. Phillip Johnson had, had the bait and
switch run on him the first time in 2002 in Ohio. Both He and then
senator Santorum were all for getting ID taught in the Ohio public
schools, but Meyer, Wells and a few others decided to start running the
bait and switch instead of giving the rubes any ID science to teach
(Wells included the decision to start running the bait and switch in his
report on the Ohio fiasco). The bait and switch went down on every
group of creationist rubes that wanted to teach the scam junk for the
next 3 years, but Johnson still came forward and supported teaching the
ID scam junk in Dover. He sat in the court room every day of testimony,
and after that experience gave the Berkeley Science Review interview.
The quote has been removed from the wiki artlcle for some reason. It
isn't controversial. Johnson never claimed otherwise. After
publication I think that the Panda's Thumb was the first discussion
group to put up the Johnson admission, and as far as I know Johnson
never changed his mind.
Ron Okimoto

https://pandasthumb.org/archives/2007/01/intelligent-des-43.html

I think that this is where I first got the Johnson quote from at Panda's
Thumb. The link PvM used no longer works and you need to use the
Wayback link I put in above. It also has the Nelson 2004 quote, and I
recall Nelson making similar claims back in 2002 when the bait and
switch started.

Ken Miller used the quote in a 2009 power point presentation.

https://www.toxicology.org/groups/rc/nesot/docs/09Miller.pdf

I do not recall Johnson ever retracting the statement, and it means just
what he is quoted as saying because he follows up with his claims that
teaching ID in the public schools is no longer a viable option, and that
he is relieved that it is all over.

I used to put up both quotes.

QUOTE:
I also don’t think that there is really a theory of intelligent
design at the present time to propose as a comparable alternative
to the Darwinian theory, which is, whatever errors it might
contain, a fully worked out scheme. There is no intelligent design
theory that’s comparable. Working out a positive theory is the job
of the scientific people that we have affiliated with the movement.
Some of them are quite convinced that it’s doable, but that’s for
them to prove…No product is ready for competition in the educational
world.
END QUOTE:

QUOTE:
For his part, Johnson agrees: “I think the fat lady has sung for any
efforts to change the approach in the public schools…the courts are
just not going to allow it. They never have. The efforts to change
things in the public schools generate more powerful opposition than
accomplish anything…I don’t think that means the end of the issue at all.”

“In some respects,” he later goes on, “I’m almost relieved, and
glad. I think the issue is properly settled. It’s clear to me now that
the public schools are not going to change their line in my lifetime.
That isn’t to me where the action really is and ought to be.”
END QUOTE:

I should note that to me, in the last quote, Johnson was admitting that
he was trying to get Biblical creationism taught in the public schools
with his reference to past court cases that could only be the
creationism cases.

Ron Okimoto