New SETI search

[RonO]

A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for super
civilizations in other galaxies. The civilizations would have to be
super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal that they are
scanning for. Huge amounts of energy would have to be channeled into
transmission of such signals. Would we ever expend such an effort to
tell someone in another galaxy that we exist? 100 MHz is in the middle
of the FM radio band, but in our expanding universe what would have been
the frequency transmitted by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in
the survey?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm

Ron Okimoto

[JTEM]

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for super
civilizations in other galaxies.  The civilizations would have to be
super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal that they are
scanning for.

Sounds like an experiment designed for failure.

Post by RonO
Huge amounts of energy would have to be channeled into
transmission of such signals.

Yeah. Would be kind of pointless to even bother, yet SETI is looking
for it?

I gave up on SETI completely, going back about four years ago, after
we found out that they had an inexplicable signal coming from the
direction of proxima centauri.

Amongst the things SETI stated, after the coverup was uncovered, was:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.prophecies.nostradamus/c/8uvCbPaPHE0/m/4N5OZTcJBAAJ

The compared the people who value SETI to anti vaxxers?!?!?

: When I meet someone who believes in conspiracy theories
: involving scientists, such as those propounded by anti-vaxxers
: or those involving aliens

SETI believes in aliens. Their whole point of existing is to find
alien signals!

SETI DENOUNCES SETI'S MISSION:

https://www.seti.org/did-proxima-centauri-just-call-say-hello-not-really

: Of the 300 million exoplanets that could be habitable in our galaxy,
: which is 200,000 light years across, it would be an astonishing
: coincidence for two civilizations (ours and one on Proxima b or c)
: to be using the same technology at the same time.

SETI is literally telling us that they believe it's a complete waste of
time searching for signals within our galaxy!

How the fricking fudge can *Anyone* take SETI seriously?

"Hey, we're waste time and money. Give us more!"

[El Kabong]

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for super
civilizations in other galaxies. The civilizations would have to be
super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal that they are
scanning for. Huge amounts of energy would have to be channeled into
transmission of such signals. Would we ever expend such an effort to
tell someone in another galaxy that we exist? 100 MHz is in the middle
of the FM radio band, but in our expanding universe what would have been
the frequency transmitted by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in
the survey?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm
Ron Okimoto

Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!

Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number? Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen. In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.

The article you cited does link to an article on a
previous survey done in 2020, but it doesn't mention the
frequency.

If the aliens transmit from a large phased array like
MWA, they could transmit a large effective power within
the beamwidth, without actually transmitting huge power.
But the beam has to be aimed in our direction. Maybe
they send signals periodically in every direction.
Similarly the MWA has to have its array pointed in the
right direction at the right time.

The chances are slim, but worth trying.

[Ernest Major]

Post by El Kabong
Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number? Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen. In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.
T

100 MHz is only a round number if you measure frequency in inverse
seconds. Since the choice of time unit is arbitrary, picking a "round
number" is a fallacious strategy.

Anyway, if you follow the breadcrumbs to the paper, they studied a
bandwidth of 30.72 MHz centered on 113.28 MHz; the 100 MHz number is a
simplification introduced by the clipping service.

It appears that this is a data mining exercise, where they examined a
data set created for other purposes.

[Ernest Major]

Post by El Kabong
Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!

The argument is that the 1420 MHz line is less arbitrary, and is not
absorbed by interstellar dust.

[RonO]

Post by Ernest Major

Post by El Kabong
Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz.  They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line.  The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency.  It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!

The argument is that the 1420 MHz line is less arbitrary, and is not
absorbed by interstellar dust.

If the aliens had broadcast at 1420 MHz what would be the frequency that
we would detect in an expanding universe? I realize that some galaxies
are moving towards us, but the red shift indicates that most things are
getting further away from us in all directions due to the Big Bang.

Ron Okimoto

[El Kabong]

Post by RonO

Post by Ernest Major

Post by El Kabong
Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz.  They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line.  The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency.  It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!

The argument is that the 1420 MHz line is less arbitrary, and is not
absorbed by interstellar dust.

Any radio signal is less absorbed by dust than optical
wavelengths.

1420 was probably a good pick, but it does have that
drawback.

Post by RonO
If the aliens had broadcast at 1420 MHz what would be the frequency that
we would detect in an expanding universe? I realize that some galaxies
are moving towards us, but the red shift indicates that most things are
getting further away from us in all directions due to the Big Bang.

Any radio signal we receive will be redshifted. But we
are not looking for extragalactic signals, they would be
way too faint. We are looking for something here in our
own neighborhood of the Milky Way, around 10k lightyears
max. At that distance the redshift is measurable but
unimportant, even for a narrow-band receiver.

[RonO]

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO

Post by Ernest Major

Post by El Kabong
Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz.  They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line.  The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency.  It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!

The argument is that the 1420 MHz line is less arbitrary, and is not
absorbed by interstellar dust.

Any radio signal is less absorbed by dust than optical
wavelengths.
1420 was probably a good pick, but it does have that
drawback.

Post by RonO
If the aliens had broadcast at 1420 MHz what would be the frequency that
we would detect in an expanding universe? I realize that some galaxies
are moving towards us, but the red shift indicates that most things are
getting further away from us in all directions due to the Big Bang.

Any radio signal we receive will be redshifted. But we
are not looking for extragalactic signals, they would be
way too faint. We are looking for something here in our
own neighborhood of the Milky Way, around 10k lightyears
max. At that distance the redshift is measurable but
unimportant, even for a narrow-band receiver.

This example is looking at other galaxies.

Ron Okimoto

[El Kabong]

Post by RonO

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO

Post by Ernest Major

Post by El Kabong
Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz.  They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line.  The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency.  It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!

The argument is that the 1420 MHz line is less arbitrary, and is not
absorbed by interstellar dust.

Any radio signal is less absorbed by dust than optical
wavelengths.
1420 was probably a good pick, but it does have that
drawback.

Post by RonO
If the aliens had broadcast at 1420 MHz what would be the frequency that
we would detect in an expanding universe? I realize that some galaxies
are moving towards us, but the red shift indicates that most things are
getting further away from us in all directions due to the Big Bang.

Any radio signal we receive will be redshifted. But we
are not looking for extragalactic signals, they would be
way too faint. We are looking for something here in our
own neighborhood of the Milky Way, around 10k lightyears
max. At that distance the redshift is measurable but
unimportant, even for a narrow-band receiver.

This example is looking at other galaxies.
Ron Okimoto

Yes, I missed that obvious statement in the article.
Between that, and the wide field nature of the receiving
antenna, the aliens would have to broadcast a signal with
the power of a star to reach us. I wish them luck.

[JTEM]

Post by RonO
If the aliens had broadcast at 1420 MHz what would be the

Your questions assumes that their are aliens, and as my previous
quote & cite proved, SETI thinks people who believe in aliens
are dog shit -- you're an anti vaxxer, or no better than any of
them, according to SETI.

Goddamn! It's a religious, this 'Leap of Faith' -- able to
maintain the belief no matter the facts...

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by RonO

Post by Ernest Major

Post by El Kabong
Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!

The argument is that the 1420 MHz line is less arbitrary, and is not
absorbed by interstellar dust.

If the aliens had broadcast at 1420 MHz what would be the frequency that
we would detect in an expanding universe? I realize that some galaxies
are moving towards us, but the red shift indicates that most things are
getting further away from us in all directions due to the Big Bang.

Completely irrelevant.
If -cosmic- redshift would really matter
they would be too far away to be detectable.

Jan

[JTEM]

If I had vast technological resources and wanted to send an "I'm here"
signal to unknown aliens over potentially vast distances, I wouldn't
generate light. That would take way too much energy, especially if it
was broadcast widely. Instead, I would rig up some opaque sheets and set
them orbiting around a star, with gaps in places so that anyone watching
from the plane of orbit would see a dit-dah message spelled out
repeating every 6 (of our) months or so.  It would work only on a fairly
narrow plane, but at least it's better than a laser pointed at a single
target.

Not necessarily. No.

We've only been in the Exoplanet game for maybe 35 years or so, and
already we have technology that can detect potential biosignatures
out to hundreds of light years away. If a civilization really is as
advanced as it posited here then, either thanks to time or technologies
we can yet imagine, they wouldn't be sending their signals out to
random planets but the planets most likely to support life!

Put short: Any message would be optimized for success.

Is SETI set up to look for anything like that?

SETI is not in the "Finding aliens" business, and they certainly would
never tell you if they did. We know this because every time they did
find a juicy signal THAT WE KNOW OF they kept it secret. The public
only ever found out about them AFTER they were judged innocuous.

[Bob Casanova]

On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 18:22:56 -0700, the following appeared in
talk.origins, posted by Mark Isaak

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for super
civilizations in other galaxies. The civilizations would have to be
super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal that they are
scanning for. Huge amounts of energy would have to be channeled into
transmission of such signals. Would we ever expend such an effort to
tell someone in another galaxy that we exist? 100 MHz is in the middle
of the FM radio band, but in our expanding universe what would have been
the frequency transmitted by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in
the survey?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm
Ron Okimoto

Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!
Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number? Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen. In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.
The article you cited does link to an article on a
previous survey done in 2020, but it doesn't mention the
frequency.
If the aliens transmit from a large phased array like
MWA, they could transmit a large effective power within
the beamwidth, without actually transmitting huge power.
But the beam has to be aimed in our direction. Maybe
they send signals periodically in every direction.
Similarly the MWA has to have its array pointed in the
right direction at the right time.
The chances are slim, but worth trying.

If I had vast technological resources and wanted to send an "I'm here"
signal to unknown aliens over potentially vast distances, I wouldn't
generate light. That would take way too much energy, especially if it
was broadcast widely. Instead, I would rig up some opaque sheets and set
them orbiting around a star, with gaps in places so that anyone watching
from the plane of orbit would see a dit-dah message spelled out
repeating every 6 (of our) months or so. It would work only on a fairly
narrow plane, but at least it's better than a laser pointed at a single
target.

Interesting idea.

Is SETI set up to look for anything like that?

Not that I've ever heard.

Of course, I would never do anything to attract strangers until I was
more than confidence that my technology could overpower any hostile
aliens I might attract. If possible, I would set up the signal several
hundred light-years away from concentrations of my species' population.

I concur; the "bird in the pile of crap" joke is exemplary.
Pollyannas tend to have short lifespans.

[Mark Isaak]

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for super
civilizations in other galaxies. The civilizations would have to be
super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal that they are
scanning for. Huge amounts of energy would have to be channeled into
transmission of such signals. Would we ever expend such an effort to
tell someone in another galaxy that we exist? 100 MHz is in the middle
of the FM radio band, but in our expanding universe what would have been
the frequency transmitted by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in
the survey?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm
Ron Okimoto

Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!
Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number? Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen. In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.
The article you cited does link to an article on a
previous survey done in 2020, but it doesn't mention the
frequency.
If the aliens transmit from a large phased array like
MWA, they could transmit a large effective power within
the beamwidth, without actually transmitting huge power.
But the beam has to be aimed in our direction. Maybe
they send signals periodically in every direction.
Similarly the MWA has to have its array pointed in the
right direction at the right time.
The chances are slim, but worth trying.

If I had vast technological resources and wanted to send an "I'm here"
signal to unknown aliens over potentially vast distances, I wouldn't
generate light. That would take way too much energy, especially if it
was broadcast widely. Instead, I would rig up some opaque sheets and set
them orbiting around a star, with gaps in places so that anyone watching
from the plane of orbit would see a dit-dah message spelled out
repeating every 6 (of our) months or so. It would work only on a fairly
narrow plane, but at least it's better than a laser pointed at a single
target.
Is SETI set up to look for anything like that?

Why would they waste resources on that?
Any search for exoplanets will find such a signal.

I expect as much. They might want to acknowledge signal lamps as a
plausible form of ET communication, though.

As a matter of fact somthing very much like it has already been found.
(six planets around the star HD 110067
locked in periodic perfect 3/2 and 4/3 resonances)
No design involved.

The point is, the method could be used to communicate that design *is*
involved, and perhaps to communicate more sophisticated message.

Of course, I would never do anything to attract strangers until I was
more than confidence that my technology could overpower any hostile
aliens I might attract. If possible, I would set up the signal several
hundred light-years away from concentrations of my species' population.

You are American, I presume?

Worse. I am human.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for super
civilizations in other galaxies. The civilizations would have to be
super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal that they are
scanning for. Huge amounts of energy would have to be channeled into
transmission of such signals. Would we ever expend such an effort to
tell someone in another galaxy that we exist? 100 MHz is in the middle
of the FM radio band, but in our expanding universe what would have been
the frequency transmitted by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in
the survey?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm
Ron Okimoto

Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!
Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number? Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen. In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.
The article you cited does link to an article on a
previous survey done in 2020, but it doesn't mention the
frequency.
If the aliens transmit from a large phased array like
MWA, they could transmit a large effective power within
the beamwidth, without actually transmitting huge power.
But the beam has to be aimed in our direction. Maybe
they send signals periodically in every direction.
Similarly the MWA has to have its array pointed in the
right direction at the right time.
The chances are slim, but worth trying.

If I had vast technological resources and wanted to send an "I'm here"
signal to unknown aliens over potentially vast distances, I wouldn't
generate light. That would take way too much energy, especially if it
was broadcast widely. Instead, I would rig up some opaque sheets and set
them orbiting around a star, with gaps in places so that anyone watching
from the plane of orbit would see a dit-dah message spelled out
repeating every 6 (of our) months or so. It would work only on a fairly
narrow plane, but at least it's better than a laser pointed at a single
target.
Is SETI set up to look for anything like that?

Why would they waste resources on that?
Any search for exoplanets will find such a signal.
As a matter of fact somthing very much like it has already been found.
(six planets around the star HD 110067
locked in periodic perfect 3/2 and 4/3 resonances)
No design involved.

Of course, I would never do anything to attract strangers until I was
more than confidence that my technology could overpower any hostile
aliens I might attract. If possible, I would set up the signal several
hundred light-years away from concentrations of my species' population.

You are American, I presume?

Jan

[Bob Casanova]

On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 21:48:53 +0200, the following appeared in

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for super
civilizations in other galaxies. The civilizations would have to be
super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal that they are
scanning for. Huge amounts of energy would have to be channeled into
transmission of such signals. Would we ever expend such an effort to
tell someone in another galaxy that we exist? 100 MHz is in the middle
of the FM radio band, but in our expanding universe what would have been
the frequency transmitted by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in
the survey?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm
Ron Okimoto

Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!
Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number? Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen. In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.
The article you cited does link to an article on a
previous survey done in 2020, but it doesn't mention the
frequency.
If the aliens transmit from a large phased array like
MWA, they could transmit a large effective power within
the beamwidth, without actually transmitting huge power.
But the beam has to be aimed in our direction. Maybe
they send signals periodically in every direction.
Similarly the MWA has to have its array pointed in the
right direction at the right time.
The chances are slim, but worth trying.

If I had vast technological resources and wanted to send an "I'm here"
signal to unknown aliens over potentially vast distances, I wouldn't
generate light. That would take way too much energy, especially if it
was broadcast widely. Instead, I would rig up some opaque sheets and set
them orbiting around a star, with gaps in places so that anyone watching
from the plane of orbit would see a dit-dah message spelled out
repeating every 6 (of our) months or so. It would work only on a fairly
narrow plane, but at least it's better than a laser pointed at a single
target.
Is SETI set up to look for anything like that?

Why would they waste resources on that?
Any search for exoplanets will find such a signal.
As a matter of fact somthing very much like it has already been found.
(six planets around the star HD 110067
locked in periodic perfect 3/2 and 4/3 resonances)
No design involved.

True. But one could make it arbitrarily complex, with
essentially zero probability of it being natural.

Of course, I would never do anything to attract strangers until I was
more than confidence that my technology could overpower any hostile
aliens I might attract. If possible, I would set up the signal several
hundred light-years away from concentrations of my species' population.

You are American, I presume?

Why do you assume that?

[J. J. Lodder]

On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 21:50:32 +0200, the following appeared in

Post by Bob Casanova
On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 21:48:53 +0200, the following appeared in

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for
super civilizations in other galaxies. The civilizations would
have to be super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal
that they are scanning for. Huge amounts of energy would have to
be channeled into transmission of such signals. Would we ever
expend such an effort to tell someone in another galaxy that we
exist? 100 MHz is in the middle of the FM radio band, but in our
expanding universe what would have been the frequency transmitted
by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in the survey?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm
Ron Okimoto

Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!
Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number? Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen. In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.
The article you cited does link to an article on a
previous survey done in 2020, but it doesn't mention the
frequency.
If the aliens transmit from a large phased array like
MWA, they could transmit a large effective power within
the beamwidth, without actually transmitting huge power.
But the beam has to be aimed in our direction. Maybe
they send signals periodically in every direction.
Similarly the MWA has to have its array pointed in the
right direction at the right time.
The chances are slim, but worth trying.

If I had vast technological resources and wanted to send an "I'm here"
signal to unknown aliens over potentially vast distances, I wouldn't
generate light. That would take way too much energy, especially if it
was broadcast widely. Instead, I would rig up some opaque sheets and set
them orbiting around a star, with gaps in places so that anyone watching
from the plane of orbit would see a dit-dah message spelled out
repeating every 6 (of our) months or so. It would work only on a fairly
narrow plane, but at least it's better than a laser pointed at a single
target.
Is SETI set up to look for anything like that?

Why would they waste resources on that?
Any search for exoplanets will find such a signal.
As a matter of fact somthing very much like it has already been found.
(six planets around the star HD 110067
locked in periodic perfect 3/2 and 4/3 resonances)
No design involved.

True. But one could make it arbitrarily complex, with
essentially zero probability of it being natural.

Have you seen 'The Ringworld Engineers'?

Seen? No, but I read it. Nothing there to refute what I
wrote, unless you think it was a documentary.

Of course not, but it puts the immense problems (read impossibilities)
of planet-sized engineering into perspective.

Post by Bob Casanova

Of course, I would never do anything to attract strangers until I was
more than confidence that my technology could overpower any hostile
aliens I might attract. If possible, I would set up the signal several
hundred light-years away from concentrations of my species' population.

You are American, I presume?

Why do you assume that?

No need to presume, in your case,

Correct; I've never said otherwise. And non-responsive to
the question, which wasn't about me, but about Mark.

Had another exchange there,

Jan

[Bob Casanova]

On Thu, 5 Sep 2024 14:58:10 +0200, the following appeared in

Post by J. J. Lodder

On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 21:50:32 +0200, the following appeared in

Post by Bob Casanova
On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 21:48:53 +0200, the following appeared in

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for
super civilizations in other galaxies. The civilizations would
have to be super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal
that they are scanning for. Huge amounts of energy would have to
be channeled into transmission of such signals. Would we ever
expend such an effort to tell someone in another galaxy that we
exist? 100 MHz is in the middle of the FM radio band, but in our
expanding universe what would have been the frequency transmitted
by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in the survey?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm
Ron Okimoto

Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!
Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number? Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen. In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.
The article you cited does link to an article on a
previous survey done in 2020, but it doesn't mention the
frequency.
If the aliens transmit from a large phased array like
MWA, they could transmit a large effective power within
the beamwidth, without actually transmitting huge power.
But the beam has to be aimed in our direction. Maybe
they send signals periodically in every direction.
Similarly the MWA has to have its array pointed in the
right direction at the right time.
The chances are slim, but worth trying.

If I had vast technological resources and wanted to send an "I'm here"
signal to unknown aliens over potentially vast distances, I wouldn't
generate light. That would take way too much energy, especially if it
was broadcast widely. Instead, I would rig up some opaque sheets and set
them orbiting around a star, with gaps in places so that anyone watching
from the plane of orbit would see a dit-dah message spelled out
repeating every 6 (of our) months or so. It would work only on a fairly
narrow plane, but at least it's better than a laser pointed at a single
target.
Is SETI set up to look for anything like that?

Why would they waste resources on that?
Any search for exoplanets will find such a signal.
As a matter of fact somthing very much like it has already been found.
(six planets around the star HD 110067
locked in periodic perfect 3/2 and 4/3 resonances)
No design involved.

True. But one could make it arbitrarily complex, with
essentially zero probability of it being natural.

Have you seen 'The Ringworld Engineers'?

Seen? No, but I read it. Nothing there to refute what I
wrote, unless you think it was a documentary.

Of course not, but it puts the immense problems (read impossibilities)
of planet-sized engineering into perspective.

Post by Bob Casanova

Of course, I would never do anything to attract strangers until I was
more than confidence that my technology could overpower any hostile
aliens I might attract. If possible, I would set up the signal several
hundred light-years away from concentrations of my species' population.

You are American, I presume?

Why do you assume that?

No need to presume, in your case,

Correct; I've never said otherwise. And non-responsive to
the question, which wasn't about me, but about Mark.

Had another exchange there,

Ummm...OK. So? You still didn't answer the question
regarding why you "presumed" Mark to be an American.

But no matter; you can assume whatever you wish based on
anything ay all, including personal bias.

[JTEM]

Post by Bob Casanova
Ummm...OK. So? You still didn't answer the question
regarding why you "presumed" Mark to be an American.
But no matter; you can assume whatever you wish based on
anything ay all, including personal bias.

What a raging turd of a narcissist you are!

No matter... Andromeda is like 2.5 million light years away,
doing the quick Google. At the speed of light, we're talking
a 5 million year wait for a return signal.

Why? It's pointless.

I mean, a civilization is just so advanced it can fart
Dyson Spheres, but it's too stupid to figure out how long
it would have to wait for the neighboring galaxy to send a
reply? And how long does the average species even survive
for? Hmm?

SETI is full of shit. THAT is the issue here.

They've concocted asinine scenarios "to test" when failure
is virtually guaranteed.

: "there isn't an instrument on Earth that can detect an
: Earth-like planet with Earth-like leakage of electromagnetic
: radiation."

https://www.engadget.com/2017-05-25-listening-to-starlight-our-ongoing-search-for-alien-intelligenc.html

Effectively, SETI is only capable of detecting two types of
signals, and they are...

#1. A signal sent as an intentional effort to communicate with
us, or at least let us know where they are.

#2. Communication to or from a space craft.

By far, and it's not even close here, the most likely signals
to reach us are communications to and/or from a space craft.

Space craft fly of to space, one presumes, and quite possibly
some distance from the home world... or solar system.

Anyway, unlike surface communications, communications with a
space ship would have to cross vast distances and maintain all
integrity.... EXACTLY the type of signal SETI would want to be
looking for.

But SETI, according to their own protocols, would dismiss such
a signal.

I mean, unless it's traveling line-of-sight towards earth, it
would be moving, and even the tiniest change in angel would
send it ridiculously far away from the original point of
detection. In other words: It couldn't repeat.

The concept is simple enough: Point a laser at the moon strong
enough to produce a visible dot. Now, whip that laser around.
The result is that dot moving across the surface of the moon
FASTER than the speed of light. You're just a mortal being, and
in your case not a very good one, but even your humble movements
of the laser, here on earth, produce incredible movement on
the surface of the moon...

That's a directed signal through space, a beam.

Thus, in the most likely instance of anyone sending a signal
capable of traversing mind-boggling distances of interstellar
or intergalactic space (communication with a craft), SETI is
incapable of "Confirming" a signal. They just can't. According
to their protocols, they don't exist.

You can check back at the same coordinates a thousand times
and you're just not supposed to see them again...

So we're left with these daft scenarios where aliens are
constructing intergalactic christmas tree lights, or "Hello,
my name is Oggarkich.1.23.Ndsch-blop" signs.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Bob Casanova
On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 21:48:53 +0200, the following appeared in

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for super
civilizations in other galaxies. The civilizations would have to be
super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal that they are
scanning for. Huge amounts of energy would have to be channeled into
transmission of such signals. Would we ever expend such an effort to
tell someone in another galaxy that we exist? 100 MHz is in the middle
of the FM radio band, but in our expanding universe what would have been
the frequency transmitted by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in
the survey?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm
Ron Okimoto

Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!
Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number? Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen. In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.
The article you cited does link to an article on a
previous survey done in 2020, but it doesn't mention the
frequency.
If the aliens transmit from a large phased array like
MWA, they could transmit a large effective power within
the beamwidth, without actually transmitting huge power.
But the beam has to be aimed in our direction. Maybe
they send signals periodically in every direction.
Similarly the MWA has to have its array pointed in the
right direction at the right time.
The chances are slim, but worth trying.

If I had vast technological resources and wanted to send an "I'm here"
signal to unknown aliens over potentially vast distances, I wouldn't
generate light. That would take way too much energy, especially if it
was broadcast widely. Instead, I would rig up some opaque sheets and set
them orbiting around a star, with gaps in places so that anyone watching
from the plane of orbit would see a dit-dah message spelled out
repeating every 6 (of our) months or so. It would work only on a fairly
narrow plane, but at least it's better than a laser pointed at a single
target.
Is SETI set up to look for anything like that?

Why would they waste resources on that?
Any search for exoplanets will find such a signal.
As a matter of fact somthing very much like it has already been found.
(six planets around the star HD 110067
locked in periodic perfect 3/2 and 4/3 resonances)
No design involved.

True. But one could make it arbitrarily complex, with
essentially zero probability of it being natural.

Have you seen 'The Ringworld Engineers'?

Post by Bob Casanova

Of course, I would never do anything to attract strangers until I was
more than confidence that my technology could overpower any hostile
aliens I might attract. If possible, I would set up the signal several
hundred light-years away from concentrations of my species' population.

You are American, I presume?

Why do you assume that?

No need to presume, in your case,

Jan

[Bob Casanova]

On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 21:50:32 +0200, the following appeared in

Post by Bob Casanova
On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 21:48:53 +0200, the following appeared in

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for super
civilizations in other galaxies. The civilizations would have to be
super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal that they are
scanning for. Huge amounts of energy would have to be channeled into
transmission of such signals. Would we ever expend such an effort to
tell someone in another galaxy that we exist? 100 MHz is in the middle
of the FM radio band, but in our expanding universe what would have been
the frequency transmitted by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in
the survey?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm
Ron Okimoto

Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!
Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number? Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen. In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.
The article you cited does link to an article on a
previous survey done in 2020, but it doesn't mention the
frequency.
If the aliens transmit from a large phased array like
MWA, they could transmit a large effective power within
the beamwidth, without actually transmitting huge power.
But the beam has to be aimed in our direction. Maybe
they send signals periodically in every direction.
Similarly the MWA has to have its array pointed in the
right direction at the right time.
The chances are slim, but worth trying.

If I had vast technological resources and wanted to send an "I'm here"
signal to unknown aliens over potentially vast distances, I wouldn't
generate light. That would take way too much energy, especially if it
was broadcast widely. Instead, I would rig up some opaque sheets and set
them orbiting around a star, with gaps in places so that anyone watching
from the plane of orbit would see a dit-dah message spelled out
repeating every 6 (of our) months or so. It would work only on a fairly
narrow plane, but at least it's better than a laser pointed at a single
target.
Is SETI set up to look for anything like that?

Why would they waste resources on that?
Any search for exoplanets will find such a signal.
As a matter of fact somthing very much like it has already been found.
(six planets around the star HD 110067
locked in periodic perfect 3/2 and 4/3 resonances)
No design involved.

True. But one could make it arbitrarily complex, with
essentially zero probability of it being natural.

Have you seen 'The Ringworld Engineers'?

Seen? No, but I read it. Nothing there to refute what I
wrote, unless you think it was a documentary.

Post by Bob Casanova

Of course, I would never do anything to attract strangers until I was
more than confidence that my technology could overpower any hostile
aliens I might attract. If possible, I would set up the signal several
hundred light-years away from concentrations of my species' population.

You are American, I presume?

Why do you assume that?

No need to presume, in your case,

Correct; I've never said otherwise. And non-responsive to
the question, which wasn't about me, but about Mark.

[JTEM]

There are people looking for (and finding) Dyson sphere candidates. And
in general variable star searches would turn up the arrangement you
describe.

Of all the ideas floated around the Dyson Spheres have to be the
dumbest.

First off, if a civilization keeps growing then you're going to have
to keep building... and building... and building...

You could just colonize another star system or, now get this, control
your population size! One of those two and you've rendered a Dyson
Sphere impractical.

Limit population size and you not only place a cap on energy needs but
food. Shelter. Medicine. Water. Clothing. ANYTHING you can think of!

Makes me speculate on the type of civilization, their earth analogs,
this Dyson Sphere thing...

The most likely civilization of a type that would undergo unchecked
growth and hence the constant need for monumental building projects
would likely resemble our insects. And that's frightening.

"But..but..but I was watching Star Trek and they were nothing like
that!"

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for super
civilizations in other galaxies. The civilizations would have to be
super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal that they are
scanning for. Huge amounts of energy would have to be channeled into
transmission of such signals. Would we ever expend such an effort to
tell someone in another galaxy that we exist? 100 MHz is in the middle
of the FM radio band, but in our expanding universe what would have been
the frequency transmitted by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in
the survey?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm
Ron Okimoto

Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz. They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line. The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency. It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!
Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number? Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen. In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.
The article you cited does link to an article on a
previous survey done in 2020, but it doesn't mention the
frequency.
If the aliens transmit from a large phased array like MWA, they could
transmit a large effective power within
the beamwidth, without actually transmitting huge power.
But the beam has to be aimed in our direction. Maybe
they send signals periodically in every direction.
Similarly the MWA has to have its array pointed in the
right direction at the right time.
The chances are slim, but worth trying.

If I had vast technological resources and wanted to send an "I'm here"
signal to unknown aliens over potentially vast distances, I wouldn't
generate light. That would take way too much energy, especially if it
was broadcast widely. Instead, I would rig up some opaque sheets and set
them orbiting around a star, with gaps in places so that anyone watching
from the plane of orbit would see a dit-dah message spelled out
repeating every 6 (of our) months or so. It would work only on a fairly
narrow plane, but at least it's better than a laser pointed at a single
target.
Is SETI set up to look for anything like that?

There are people looking for (and finding) Dyson sphere candidates.

'candidate' is the word...

And in general variable star searches would turn up the arrangement you
describe.

You will need planet-sized structures to generate a very weak signal,

Jan

[Ernest Major]

Post by El Kabong

Post by RonO
A group is using the Murchison wide field array to monitor for super
civilizations in other galaxies.  The civilizations would have to be
super advanced in order to generate the 100 MHz signal that they are
scanning for.  Huge amounts of energy would have to be channeled into
transmission of such signals.  Would we ever expend such an effort to
tell someone in another galaxy that we exist?  100 MHz is in the middle
of the FM radio band, but in our expanding universe what would have been
the frequency transmitted by any one of the 2,800 galaxies scanned in
the survey?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240826131354.htm
Ron Okimoto

Previous searches at Aricebo and other sites looked for
alien signals at 1420 Mhz.  They picked that frequency
because it is a hydrogen line.  The thinking is that
aliens would more likely broadcast there than an
arbitrary frequency.  It never made sense to me because
the signal will be attenuated by any hydrogen lying in
the path, and because if you tune in to the hydrogen
line, you'll find... hydrogen noise!
Maybe space aliens will broadcast on 100 Mhz because it's
a nice round number?  Then again they might have 3 digits
per hand and use a base-6 system and think 60.466176 Mhz
is a nice round number where other hexadigits would
listen.  In any case you have to pick a frequency
somewhere.
The article you cited does link to an article on a
previous survey done in 2020, but it doesn't mention the
frequency.
If the aliens transmit from a large phased array like MWA, they could
transmit a large effective power within
the beamwidth, without actually transmitting huge power.
But the beam has to be aimed in our direction.  Maybe
they send signals periodically in every direction.
Similarly the MWA has to have its array pointed in the
right direction at the right time.
The chances are slim, but worth trying.

If I had vast technological resources and wanted to send an "I'm here"
signal to unknown aliens over potentially vast distances, I wouldn't
generate light. That would take way too much energy, especially if it
was broadcast widely. Instead, I would rig up some opaque sheets and set
them orbiting around a star, with gaps in places so that anyone watching
from the plane of orbit would see a dit-dah message spelled out
repeating every 6 (of our) months or so.  It would work only on a fairly
narrow plane, but at least it's better than a laser pointed at a single
target.
Is SETI set up to look for anything like that?

There are people looking for (and finding) Dyson sphere candidates. And
in general variable star searches would turn up the arrangement you
describe.

Of course, I would never do anything to attract strangers until I was
more than confidence that my technology could overpower any hostile
aliens I might attract. If possible, I would set up the signal several
hundred light-years away from concentrations of my species' population.