Why all apes including humans do not have tails

Post by RonO
It turns out that the common ancestor that between gibbons and the great
apes had an ALU transposon jump into the intron between exon 6 and exon
7 of the TBXT gene. There was already an transposon between exon 5 and
exon 6. Monkeys and apes have the ALU insertion in the intron between
exon 5 and exon 6, but the apes have the second ALU insertion in the
intron between exons 6 and 7. So it turns out that apes still have the
exon 6 sequence in the TBXT gene, but the two ALU transposon sequences
form a stem loop structure in the RNA transcript that messes up
processing so exon 6 is skipped and exon 5 is stuck to exon 7 in the
final ape mRNA. So part of what makes us human is due to a transposon
insertion mutation into the TBXT gene.
The insertion happened in the common ancestor of all extant apes, and
has been retained by the extant ape lineages.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07095-8
The article is open access.
Ron Okimoto

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice expressing
the exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube defects, a condition
that affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates in humans10. Thus,
tail-loss evolution may have been associated with an adaptive cost of
the potential for neural tube defects, which continue to affect human
health today."

Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the disadvantage
of the neural tube defects.

RonO

2024-02-29 11:55:16 UTC

Post by RonO
It turns out that the common ancestor that between gibbons and the
great apes had an ALU transposon jump into the intron between exon 6
and exon 7 of the TBXT gene. There was already an transposon between
exon 5 and exon 6. Monkeys and apes have the ALU insertion in the
intron between exon 5 and exon 6, but the apes have the second ALU
insertion in the intron between exons 6 and 7. So it turns out that
apes still have the exon 6 sequence in the TBXT gene, but the two ALU
transposon sequences form a stem loop structure in the RNA transcript
that messes up processing so exon 6 is skipped and exon 5 is stuck to
exon 7 in the final ape mRNA. So part of what makes us human is due
to a transposon insertion mutation into the TBXT gene.
The insertion happened in the common ancestor of all extant apes, and
has been retained by the extant ape lineages.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07095-8
The article is open access.
Ron Okimoto

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice expressing
the exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube defects, a condition
that affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates in humans10. Thus,
tail-loss evolution may have been associated with an adaptive cost of
the potential for neural tube defects, which continue to affect human
health today."
Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the disadvantage
of the neural tube defects.

What were the advantages?

Some other simian lineages have lost their tails, but what is the advantage?

Apes did become brachiators, but other simian lineages did not, and some
simian lineages that adopted a similar lifestyle for supporting
themselves in the trees, actually developed prehensile tails as a fifth
limb for supporting themselves hanging from branches.

For birds there was a selective advantage in terms of weight, and the
tailbones degenerated and fused into a small nub. The tail was not
lost, and birds still have a nub that they call a pygostyle that still
supports the muscles that control the tail movements and so the feathers
associated with the tail.

Ron Okimoto

FromTheRafters

2024-02-29 12:29:08 UTC

Post by RonO
It turns out that the common ancestor that between gibbons and the great
apes had an ALU transposon jump into the intron between exon 6 and exon 7
of the TBXT gene. There was already an transposon between exon 5 and exon
6. Monkeys and apes have the ALU insertion in the intron between exon 5
and exon 6, but the apes have the second ALU insertion in the intron
between exons 6 and 7. So it turns out that apes still have the exon 6
sequence in the TBXT gene, but the two ALU transposon sequences form a
stem loop structure in the RNA transcript that messes up processing so
exon 6 is skipped and exon 5 is stuck to exon 7 in the final ape mRNA. So
part of what makes us human is due to a transposon insertion mutation into
the TBXT gene.
The insertion happened in the common ancestor of all extant apes, and has
been retained by the extant ape lineages.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07095-8
The article is open access.
Ron Okimoto

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice expressing the
exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube defects, a condition that
affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates in humans10. Thus, tail-loss
evolution may have been associated with an adaptive cost of the potential
for neural tube defects, which continue to affect human health today."
Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the disadvantage of
the neural tube defects.

What were the advantages?
Some other simian lineages have lost their tails, but what is the advantage?
Apes did become brachiators, but other simian lineages did not, and some
simian lineages that adopted a similar lifestyle for supporting themselves in
the trees, actually developed prehensile tails as a fifth limb for supporting
themselves hanging from branches.
For birds there was a selective advantage in terms of weight, and the
tailbones degenerated and fused into a small nub. The tail was not lost, and
birds still have a nub that they call a pygostyle that still supports the
muscles that control the tail movements and so the feathers associated with
the tail.
Ron Okimoto

I suppose sitting is much easier without a tail.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6417348/

erik simpson

2024-02-29 16:06:49 UTC

Post by RonO
It turns out that the common ancestor that between gibbons and the
great apes had an ALU transposon jump into the intron between exon 6
and exon 7 of the TBXT gene. There was already an transposon
between exon 5 and exon 6. Monkeys and apes have the ALU insertion
in the intron between exon 5 and exon 6, but the apes have the
second ALU insertion in the intron between exons 6 and 7. So it
turns out that apes still have the exon 6 sequence in the TBXT gene,
but the two ALU transposon sequences form a stem loop structure in
the RNA transcript that messes up processing so exon 6 is skipped
and exon 5 is stuck to exon 7 in the final ape mRNA. So part of
what makes us human is due to a transposon insertion mutation into
the TBXT gene.
The insertion happened in the common ancestor of all extant apes,
and has been retained by the extant ape lineages.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07095-8
The article is open access.
Ron Okimoto

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice
expressing the exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube defects,
a condition that affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates in
humans10. Thus, tail-loss evolution may have been associated with an
adaptive cost of the potential for neural tube defects, which
continue to affect human health today."
Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the
disadvantage of the neural tube defects.

What were the advantages?
Some other simian lineages have lost their tails, but what is the advantage?
Apes did become brachiators, but other simian lineages did not, and
some simian lineages that adopted a similar lifestyle for supporting
themselves in the trees, actually developed prehensile tails as a
fifth limb for supporting themselves hanging from branches.
For birds there was a selective advantage in terms of weight, and the
tailbones degenerated and fused into a small nub. The tail was not
lost, and birds still have a nub that they call a pygostyle that still
supports the muscles that control the tail movements and so the
feathers associated with the tail.
Ron Okimoto

I suppose sitting is much easier without a tail.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6417348/

That can't be it. My dog has a long tail and has no trouble sitting.

FromTheRafters

2024-02-29 18:43:34 UTC

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice expressing
the exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube defects, a condition
that affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates in humans10. Thus,
tail-loss evolution may have been associated with an adaptive cost of the
potential for neural tube defects, which continue to affect human health
today."
Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the disadvantage of
the neural tube defects.

What were the advantages?
Some other simian lineages have lost their tails, but what is the advantage?
Apes did become brachiators, but other simian lineages did not, and some
simian lineages that adopted a similar lifestyle for supporting themselves
in the trees, actually developed prehensile tails as a fifth limb for
supporting themselves hanging from branches.
For birds there was a selective advantage in terms of weight, and the
tailbones degenerated and fused into a small nub. The tail was not lost,
and birds still have a nub that they call a pygostyle that still supports
the muscles that control the tail movements and so the feathers associated
with the tail.
Ron Okimoto

I suppose sitting is much easier without a tail.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6417348/

That can't be it. My dog has a long tail and has no trouble sitting.

Were we talking about dogs?

Bob Casanova

2024-02-29 19:18:12 UTC

On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:43:34 -0500, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by FromTheRafters

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice expressing
the exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube defects, a condition
that affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates in humans10. Thus,
tail-loss evolution may have been associated with an adaptive cost of the
potential for neural tube defects, which continue to affect human health
today."
Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the disadvantage of
the neural tube defects.

What were the advantages?
Some other simian lineages have lost their tails, but what is the advantage?
Apes did become brachiators, but other simian lineages did not, and some
simian lineages that adopted a similar lifestyle for supporting themselves
in the trees, actually developed prehensile tails as a fifth limb for
supporting themselves hanging from branches.
For birds there was a selective advantage in terms of weight, and the
tailbones degenerated and fused into a small nub. The tail was not lost,
and birds still have a nub that they call a pygostyle that still supports
the muscles that control the tail movements and so the feathers associated
with the tail.
Ron Okimoto

I suppose sitting is much easier without a tail.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6417348/

That can't be it. My dog has a long tail and has no trouble sitting.

Were we talking about dogs?

No, about sitting with tails.

--
Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

jillery

2024-03-01 06:49:15 UTC

On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:43:34 -0500, FromTheRafters

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice expressing
the exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube defects, a condition
that affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates in humans10. Thus,
tail-loss evolution may have been associated with an adaptive cost of the
potential for neural tube defects, which continue to affect human health
today."
Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the disadvantage of
the neural tube defects.

What were the advantages?
Some other simian lineages have lost their tails, but what is the advantage?
Apes did become brachiators, but other simian lineages did not, and some
simian lineages that adopted a similar lifestyle for supporting themselves
in the trees, actually developed prehensile tails as a fifth limb for
supporting themselves hanging from branches.
For birds there was a selective advantage in terms of weight, and the
tailbones degenerated and fused into a small nub. The tail was not lost,
and birds still have a nub that they call a pygostyle that still supports
the muscles that control the tail movements and so the feathers associated
with the tail.
Ron Okimoto

I suppose sitting is much easier without a tail.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6417348/

That can't be it. My dog has a long tail and has no trouble sitting.

Were we talking about dogs?

The immediate point is about sitting with tails. The previous point
is about gibbon ancestors losing their tails. A point relevant to
both is gibbons have no problems sitting with their tails either.

--
To know less than we don't know is the nature of most knowledge

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-03-03 18:24:05 UTC

Post by RonO
It turns out that the common ancestor that between gibbons and the
great apes had an ALU transposon jump into the intron between exon 6
and exon 7 of the TBXT gene. There was already an transposon between
exon 5 and exon 6. Monkeys and apes have the ALU insertion in the
intron between exon 5 and exon 6, but the apes have the second ALU
insertion in the intron between exons 6 and 7. So it turns out that
apes still have the exon 6 sequence in the TBXT gene, but the two ALU
transposon sequences form a stem loop structure in the RNA transcript
that messes up processing so exon 6 is skipped and exon 5 is stuck to
exon 7 in the final ape mRNA. So part of what makes us human is due to
a transposon insertion mutation into the TBXT gene.
The insertion happened in the common ancestor of all extant apes, and
has been retained by the extant ape lineages.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07095-8
The article is open access.
Ron Okimoto

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice expressing
the exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube defects, a condition
that affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates in humans10. Thus,
tail-loss evolution may have been associated with an adaptive cost of
the potential for neural tube defects, which continue to affect human
health today."
Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the disadvantage
of the neural tube defects.

What were the advantages?
Some other simian lineages have lost their tails, but what is the advantage?
Apes did become brachiators, but other simian lineages did not, and
some simian lineages that adopted a similar lifestyle for supporting
themselves in the trees, actually developed prehensile tails as a fifth
limb for supporting themselves hanging from branches.
For birds there was a selective advantage in terms of weight, and the
tailbones degenerated and fused into a small nub. The tail was not
lost, and birds still have a nub that they call a pygostyle that still
supports the muscles that control the tail movements and so the
feathers associated with the tail.
Ron Okimoto

I suppose sitting is much easier without a tail.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6417348/

That can't be it. My dog has a long tail and has no trouble sitting.

Virtually all (non-Manx) cats likewise.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Robert Carnegie

2024-03-25 19:38:59 UTC

Post by RonO
It turns out that the common ancestor that between gibbons and the
great apes had an ALU transposon jump into the intron between exon
6 and exon 7 of the TBXT gene. There was already an transposon
between exon 5 and exon 6. Monkeys and apes have the ALU insertion
in the intron between exon 5 and exon 6, but the apes have the
second ALU insertion in the intron between exons 6 and 7. So it
turns out that apes still have the exon 6 sequence in the TBXT
gene, but the two ALU transposon sequences form a stem loop
structure in the RNA transcript that messes up processing so exon 6
is skipped and exon 5 is stuck to exon 7 in the final ape mRNA. So
part of what makes us human is due to a transposon insertion
mutation into the TBXT gene.
The insertion happened in the common ancestor of all extant apes,
and has been retained by the extant ape lineages.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07095-8
The article is open access.
Ron Okimoto

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice
expressing the exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube
defects, a condition that affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates
in humans10. Thus, tail-loss evolution may have been associated with
an adaptive cost of the potential for neural tube defects, which
continue to affect human health today."
Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the
disadvantage of the neural tube defects.

What were the advantages?
Some other simian lineages have lost their tails, but what is the advantage?
Apes did become brachiators, but other simian lineages did not, and
some simian lineages that adopted a similar lifestyle for supporting
themselves in the trees, actually developed prehensile tails as a
fifth limb for supporting themselves hanging from branches.
For birds there was a selective advantage in terms of weight, and the
tailbones degenerated and fused into a small nub. The tail was not
lost, and birds still have a nub that they call a pygostyle that
still supports the muscles that control the tail movements and so the
feathers associated with the tail.
Ron Okimoto

I suppose sitting is much easier without a tail.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6417348/

That can't be it. My dog has a long tail and has no trouble sitting.

A dog can adjust their tail. The article refers
to a Young man who had one and didn't know what
to do with it, and who indeed was having trouble
sitting with comfort.

I can't read this style of writing well enough
to tell whether doctors removed the tail, or
only adjusted the bones that it was attached to.

erik simpson

2024-02-29 16:05:05 UTC

Post by RonO
It turns out that the common ancestor that between gibbons and the
great apes had an ALU transposon jump into the intron between exon 6
and exon 7 of the TBXT gene. There was already an transposon between
exon 5 and exon 6. Monkeys and apes have the ALU insertion in the
intron between exon 5 and exon 6, but the apes have the second ALU
insertion in the intron between exons 6 and 7. So it turns out that
apes still have the exon 6 sequence in the TBXT gene, but the two ALU
transposon sequences form a stem loop structure in the RNA transcript
that messes up processing so exon 6 is skipped and exon 5 is stuck to
exon 7 in the final ape mRNA. So part of what makes us human is due
to a transposon insertion mutation into the TBXT gene.
The insertion happened in the common ancestor of all extant apes, and
has been retained by the extant ape lineages.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07095-8
The article is open access.
Ron Okimoto

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice expressing
the exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube defects, a condition
that affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates in humans10. Thus,
tail-loss evolution may have been associated with an adaptive cost of
the potential for neural tube defects, which continue to affect human
health today."
Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the disadvantage
of the neural tube defects.

What were the advantages?
Some other simian lineages have lost their tails, but what is the advantage?
Apes did become brachiators, but other simian lineages did not, and some
simian lineages that adopted a similar lifestyle for supporting
themselves in the trees, actually developed prehensile tails as a fifth
limb for supporting themselves hanging from branches.
For birds there was a selective advantage in terms of weight, and the
tailbones degenerated and fused into a small nub. The tail was not
lost, and birds still have a nub that they call a pygostyle that still
supports the muscles that control the tail movements and so the feathers
associated with the tail.
Ron Okimoto

I believe the article mentions that bipedalism is speculated to have
made bipedalism easier. That could be a just-so story, but mutations
that are adopted and fixed within a population must have advantages that
outweigh potential advantages. Aside from posture I can't think of what
the advantages might be. Pants are easier? (Note to literalists: I
don't seriously suggest that.)

Bob Casanova

2024-02-29 19:17:17 UTC

On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 08:05:05 -0800, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by erik simpson

Post by RonO
It turns out that the common ancestor that between gibbons and the
great apes had an ALU transposon jump into the intron between exon 6
and exon 7 of the TBXT gene. There was already an transposon between
exon 5 and exon 6. Monkeys and apes have the ALU insertion in the
intron between exon 5 and exon 6, but the apes have the second ALU
insertion in the intron between exons 6 and 7. So it turns out that
apes still have the exon 6 sequence in the TBXT gene, but the two ALU
transposon sequences form a stem loop structure in the RNA transcript
that messes up processing so exon 6 is skipped and exon 5 is stuck to
exon 7 in the final ape mRNA. So part of what makes us human is due
to a transposon insertion mutation into the TBXT gene.
The insertion happened in the common ancestor of all extant apes, and
has been retained by the extant ape lineages.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07095-8
The article is open access.
Ron Okimoto

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice expressing
the exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube defects, a condition
that affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates in humans10. Thus,
tail-loss evolution may have been associated with an adaptive cost of
the potential for neural tube defects, which continue to affect human
health today."
Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the disadvantage
of the neural tube defects.

What were the advantages?
Some other simian lineages have lost their tails, but what is the advantage?
Apes did become brachiators, but other simian lineages did not, and some
simian lineages that adopted a similar lifestyle for supporting
themselves in the trees, actually developed prehensile tails as a fifth
limb for supporting themselves hanging from branches.
For birds there was a selective advantage in terms of weight, and the
tailbones degenerated and fused into a small nub. The tail was not
lost, and birds still have a nub that they call a pygostyle that still
supports the muscles that control the tail movements and so the feathers
associated with the tail.
Ron Okimoto

I believe the article mentions that bipedalism is speculated to have
made bipedalism easier.

No causal link there... ;-)

Post by erik simpson
That could be a just-so story, but mutations
that are adopted and fixed within a population must have advantages that
outweigh potential advantages.

Indubitably.

Post by erik simpson
Aside from posture I can't think of what
the advantages might be. Pants are easier? (Note to literalists: I
don't seriously suggest that.)

--
Bob C.

"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"

- Isaac Asimov

DB Cates

2024-03-01 04:31:16 UTC

Post by Bob Casanova
On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 08:05:05 -0800, the following appeared
in talk.origins, posted by erik simpson

Post by RonO
It turns out that the common ancestor that between gibbons and the
great apes had an ALU transposon jump into the intron between exon 6
and exon 7 of the TBXT gene. There was already an transposon between
exon 5 and exon 6. Monkeys and apes have the ALU insertion in the
intron between exon 5 and exon 6, but the apes have the second ALU
insertion in the intron between exons 6 and 7. So it turns out that
apes still have the exon 6 sequence in the TBXT gene, but the two ALU
transposon sequences form a stem loop structure in the RNA transcript
that messes up processing so exon 6 is skipped and exon 5 is stuck to
exon 7 in the final ape mRNA. So part of what makes us human is due
to a transposon insertion mutation into the TBXT gene.
The insertion happened in the common ancestor of all extant apes, and
has been retained by the extant ape lineages.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07095-8
The article is open access.
Ron Okimoto

Another effect of this modification is also "Moreover, mice expressing
the exon-skipped Tbxt isoform develop neural tube defects, a condition
that affects approximately 1 in 1,000 neonates in humans10. Thus,
tail-loss evolution may have been associated with an adaptive cost of
the potential for neural tube defects, which continue to affect human
health today."
Evidently, the advantages of losing the tail outweigh the disadvantage
of the neural tube defects.

What were the advantages?
Some other simian lineages have lost their tails, but what is the advantage?
Apes did become brachiators, but other simian lineages did not, and some
simian lineages that adopted a similar lifestyle for supporting
themselves in the trees, actually developed prehensile tails as a fifth
limb for supporting themselves hanging from branches.
For birds there was a selective advantage in terms of weight, and the
tailbones degenerated and fused into a small nub. The tail was not
lost, and birds still have a nub that they call a pygostyle that still
supports the muscles that control the tail movements and so the feathers
associated with the tail.
Ron Okimoto

I believe the article mentions that bipedalism is speculated to have
made bipedalism easier.

No causal link there... ;-)

Post by erik simpson
That could be a just-so story, but mutations
that are adopted and fixed within a population must have advantages that
outweigh potential advantages.

Indubitably.

Really? Drift is out?

Post by Bob Casanova

Post by erik simpson
Aside from posture I can't think of what
the advantages might be. Pants are easier? (Note to literalists: I
don't seriously suggest that.)

--
--
Don Cates ("he's a cunning rascal" PN)

Bob Casanova

2024-03-01 16:49:13 UTC