We need a new reformation

[RonO]

In my last post about the ID perps at the Discovery Institute running a
bait and switch scam on the creationist rubes for over 22 years I noted
that the Top Six best evidences for IDiocy were all used by the
scientific creationists that preceded them in trying to teach Biblical
creationism in the public schools. You can find all of them in the
Answers in Genesis (AIG) creation museum. Even though the Big Bang has
been a science subject that the YEC and IDiotic creationists have tried
to get removed from the the public school science standards along with
biological evolution in several states, and they succeeded in Kansas,
the Big Bang is featured prominently in the AIG's planetarium exibit.
Like the other Top Six god-of-the-gaps denial arguments the ID perps and
the AIG only use them as independent bits of denial. They never try to
develop any creation model out of them. They are only used for denial
purposes and the rubes are supposed to forget one as they move onto the
others.

I went to the AIG web site to see if they were still lying to the rubes
about the junk, and found them calling for a new reformation.

https://answersingenesis.org/

QUOTE:
We need a new reformation today—a reformation where God’s people,
particularly Christian leaders, repent of compromising God’s Word
(particularly in Genesis 1–11), and stand boldly on God’s infallible Word.
END QUOTE:

They can't deal with the fact that Biblical creationists are beginning
to realize that the Bible has been wrong about nature for a very long
time, and the AIG doesn't like the accommodations that have had to be
made by any religious organization led by competent and rational human
beings. After the IDiotic creationist loss in Dover YEC Biblical
literalist Christian denominations like the Assembly of God Church have
been trying to convert their followers to old earth creationism. The
AIG has come out against these changes and the accommodations that many
Christians are making for biological evolution.

The first protestant reformation also wanted the Catholic church to get
tougher on notions that conflicted with Biblical interpretation of
nature. TO had a thread on the heliocentric heresy, and we learned that
when Bruno was burned at the stake his heliocentric heresy was only a
lesser heresy at that time and was not punishable by death. The Church
fathers were all geocentrists, but Saint Augustine had cautioned
Christians that they should not use the Bible to deny what we could
figure out about nature for ourselves. Augustine went unheeded and
heliocentrism became a heresy. After Bruno was burned at the stake,
being also found guilty of other charges, the protestant reformers
wanted the Catholic church to stop allowing the heliocentric heresy to
fester, and it was elevated to being a heresy punishable by death.
Galileo faced the death penalty. Heliocentrism is still a heresy, but it
was demoted to being a lesser heresy again in the 19th century. Newton
was born the year Galileo died under house arrest (1642) and geocentrism
hasn't been a serious notion since Newton. Kepler was likely the last
one to try to support the existence of the firmament with his crystal
spheres, but he had to give that up when he figured out elliptical orbits.

My guess is that the AIG does not want heliocentrism to be elevated to a
capital heresy again because there are not very many Christians that
continue to believe in geocentrism or the standard Biblical cosmology.
The Hebrew acquired their cosmology from their neighbors that had been
civilized for a longer period of time. The earth was flat with a
firmament above holding the sun, moon, planets, and stars. The earth
was the center of the universe and God would open the firmament every
once in a while to let the water fall to the earth as rain. The church
fathers were likely not flat earthers, and Augustine was likely fighting
flat earth literalists when he made his recommendation to not use the
Bible as a source for understanding nature. The Greeks had estimated
the circumference of the earth a couple of centuries before Christ was
born, and the church fathers were likely all geocentrists, and were
likely not flat earthers.

At the time that the Christian Church was forming the geocentric
cosmology excluded the flat earth of the Bible, so the early church had
already relegated the flat earth claims in the Bible as symbolic or
metaphorical. They already understood that the Bible could not be taken
literally. The reason for Saint Augustine's admonishment about denial
of nature was not mentioned by Augustine, but it was likely flat-earth
Christians that had not yet accepted the Greek cosmology. Even though
the Greeks had estimated the circumference of the earth by physcial
geometric measurement a couple of centuries before Christ was born,
there were early Christian flat earthers.

My guess is that Ham isn't a geocentrist nor flat earther, but he is
still calling for his reformation. Ham's reformation is needed because
most of the ID perps are old earth creationists. When I started calling
the Discovery Institute's intelligent design scam artists "ID perps"
just before Dover hit the fan. I noted that most of their victims in
the bait and switch scam that they had been running for around 2 years
likely wanted to tar and feather the ID perp scam artists (most of them
had dropped the issue instead of bend over for the switch scam). I also
noted that if they ever were successful in recreating their imagined
Christian theocracy that they were likely to be the first up against the
wall after the establishment of the new order. The AIG's call for a
reformation supports that notion. When Dembski was forced to apologize
to his students in order to keep his job, after he told them that the
earth was likely older than indicated in the Bible and that the flood
may have been local, that was a warning that the ID perps would be the
first up against the wall in any theocracy that they might have been
able to create. Most of their support has always been YEC, but most of
the ID perps were OEC and they were all stupid enough to think that they
could ride that tiger. We are all lucky that the ID perps were all too
incompetent and dishonest to have succeeded with the mission that they
signed up for.

Ron Okimoto

[RonO]

Post by RonO
In my last post about the ID perps at the Discovery Institute running a
bait and switch scam on the creationist rubes for over 22 years I noted
that the Top Six best evidences for IDiocy were all used by the
scientific creationists that preceded them in trying to teach Biblical
creationism in the public schools.  You can find all of them in the
Answers in Genesis (AIG) creation museum.  Even though the Big Bang has
been a science subject that the YEC and IDiotic creationists have tried
to get removed from the the public school science standards along with
biological evolution in several states, and they succeeded in Kansas,
the Big Bang is featured prominently in the AIG's planetarium exibit.
Like the other Top Six god-of-the-gaps denial arguments the ID perps and
the AIG only use them as independent bits of denial.  They never try to
develop any creation model out of them.  They are only used for denial
purposes and the rubes are supposed to forget one as they move onto the
others.
I went to the AIG web site to see if they were still lying to the rubes
about the junk, and found them calling for a new reformation.
https://answersingenesis.org/
We need a new reformation today—a reformation where God’s people,
particularly Christian leaders, repent of compromising God’s Word
(particularly in Genesis 1–11), and stand boldly on God’s infallible Word.

The article has been removed from the AIG site. It was between the
"Pope Francis" article and the "Crystals & Christians" article.

Googling the quoted text only brings up an older article that had
similar wording.

QUOTE:
The spirit of compromise sadly permeates much of the church. I submit we
need a new reformation honoring the authority of God's Word starting
with Genesis 1:1 before there can be real revival.
END QUOTE:

https://x.com/aigkenham/status/1663153669934657538

It was a two part X post like the current Caveman post, but it looks
like Ham changed his mind about posting it.

Ron Okimoto

Post by RonO
They can't deal with the fact that Biblical creationists are beginning
to realize that the Bible has been wrong about nature for a very long
time, and the AIG doesn't like the accommodations that have had to be
made by any religious organization led by competent and rational human
beings.  After the IDiotic creationist loss in Dover YEC Biblical
literalist Christian denominations like the Assembly of God Church have
been trying to convert their followers to old earth creationism.  The
AIG has come out against these changes and the accommodations that many
Christians are making for biological evolution.
The first protestant reformation also wanted the Catholic church to get
tougher on notions that conflicted with Biblical interpretation of
nature.  TO had a thread on the heliocentric heresy, and we learned that
when Bruno was burned at the stake his heliocentric heresy was only a
lesser heresy at that time and was not punishable by death.  The Church
fathers were all geocentrists, but Saint Augustine had cautioned
Christians that they should not use the Bible to deny what we could
figure out about nature for ourselves.  Augustine went unheeded and
heliocentrism became a heresy.  After Bruno was burned at the stake,
being also found guilty of other charges, the protestant reformers
wanted the Catholic church to stop allowing the heliocentric heresy to
fester, and it was elevated to being a heresy punishable by death.
Galileo faced the death penalty. Heliocentrism is still a heresy, but it
was demoted to being a lesser heresy again in the 19th century.  Newton
was born the year Galileo died under house arrest (1642) and geocentrism
hasn't been a serious notion since Newton.  Kepler was likely the last
one to try to support the existence of the firmament with his crystal
spheres, but he had to give that up when he figured out elliptical orbits.
My guess is that the AIG does not want heliocentrism to be elevated to a
capital heresy again because there are not very many Christians that
continue to believe in geocentrism or the standard Biblical cosmology.
The Hebrew acquired their cosmology from their neighbors that had been
civilized for a longer period of time.  The earth was flat with a
firmament above holding the sun, moon, planets, and stars.  The earth
was the center of the universe and God would open the firmament every
once in a while to let the water fall to the earth as rain.  The church
fathers were likely not flat earthers, and Augustine was likely fighting
flat earth literalists when he made his recommendation to not use the
Bible as a source for understanding nature.  The Greeks had estimated
the circumference of the earth a couple of centuries before Christ was
born, and the church fathers were likely all geocentrists, and were
likely not flat earthers.
At the time that the Christian Church was forming the geocentric
cosmology excluded the flat earth of the Bible, so the early church had
already relegated the flat earth claims in the Bible as symbolic or
metaphorical.  They already understood that the Bible could not be taken
literally.  The reason for Saint Augustine's admonishment about denial
of nature was not mentioned by Augustine, but it was likely flat-earth
Christians that had not yet accepted the Greek cosmology.  Even though
the Greeks had estimated the circumference of the earth by physcial
geometric measurement a couple of centuries before Christ was born,
there were early Christian flat earthers.
My guess is that Ham isn't a geocentrist nor flat earther, but he is
still calling for his reformation.  Ham's reformation is needed because
most of the ID perps are old earth creationists.  When I started calling
the Discovery Institute's intelligent design scam artists "ID perps"
just before Dover hit the fan.  I noted that most of their victims in
the bait and switch scam that they had been running for around 2 years
likely wanted to tar and feather the ID perp scam artists (most of them
had dropped the issue instead of bend over for the switch scam).  I also
noted that if they ever were successful in recreating their imagined
Christian theocracy that they were likely to be the first up against the
wall after the establishment of the new order.  The AIG's call for a
reformation supports that notion.  When Dembski was forced to apologize
to his students in order to keep his job, after he told them that the
earth was likely older than indicated in the Bible and that the flood
may have been local, that was a warning that the ID perps would be the
first up against the wall in any theocracy that they might have been
able to create.  Most of their support has always been YEC, but most of
the ID perps were OEC and they were all stupid enough to think that they
could ride that tiger.  We are all lucky that the ID perps were all too
incompetent and dishonest to have succeeded with the mission that they
signed up for.
Ron Okimoto

[RonO]

Post by RonO
In my last post about the ID perps at the Discovery Institute running a
bait and switch scam on the creationist rubes for over 22 years I noted
that the Top Six best evidences for IDiocy were all used by the
scientific creationists that preceded them in trying to teach Biblical
creationism in the public schools.  You can find all of them in the
Answers in Genesis (AIG) creation museum.  Even though the Big Bang has
been a science subject that the YEC and IDiotic creationists have tried
to get removed from the the public school science standards along with
biological evolution in several states, and they succeeded in Kansas,
the Big Bang is featured prominently in the AIG's planetarium exibit.
Like the other Top Six god-of-the-gaps denial arguments the ID perps and
the AIG only use them as independent bits of denial.  They never try to
develop any creation model out of them.  They are only used for denial
purposes and the rubes are supposed to forget one as they move onto the
others.
I went to the AIG web site to see if they were still lying to the rubes
about the junk, and found them calling for a new reformation.
https://answersingenesis.org/
We need a new reformation today—a reformation where God’s people,
particularly Christian leaders, repent of compromising God’s Word
(particularly in Genesis 1–11), and stand boldly on God’s infallible Word.
They can't deal with the fact that Biblical creationists are beginning
to realize that the Bible has been wrong about nature for a very long
time, and the AIG doesn't like the accommodations that have had to be
made by any religious organization led by competent and rational human
beings.  After the IDiotic creationist loss in Dover YEC Biblical
literalist Christian denominations like the Assembly of God Church have
been trying to convert their followers to old earth creationism.  The
AIG has come out against these changes and the accommodations that many
Christians are making for biological evolution.
The first protestant reformation also wanted the Catholic church to get
tougher on notions that conflicted with Biblical interpretation of
nature.  TO had a thread on the heliocentric heresy, and we learned that
when Bruno was burned at the stake his heliocentric heresy was only a
lesser heresy at that time and was not punishable by death.  The Church
fathers were all geocentrists, but Saint Augustine had cautioned
Christians that they should not use the Bible to deny what we could
figure out about nature for ourselves.  Augustine went unheeded and
heliocentrism became a heresy.  After Bruno was burned at the stake,
being also found guilty of other charges, the protestant reformers
wanted the Catholic church to stop allowing the heliocentric heresy to
fester, and it was elevated to being a heresy punishable by death.
Galileo faced the death penalty. Heliocentrism is still a heresy, but it
was demoted to being a lesser heresy again in the 19th century.  Newton
was born the year Galileo died under house arrest (1642) and geocentrism
hasn't been a serious notion since Newton.  Kepler was likely the last
one to try to support the existence of the firmament with his crystal
spheres, but he had to give that up when he figured out elliptical orbits.
My guess is that the AIG does not want heliocentrism to be elevated to a
capital heresy again because there are not very many Christians that
continue to believe in geocentrism or the standard Biblical cosmology.
The Hebrew acquired their cosmology from their neighbors that had been
civilized for a longer period of time.  The earth was flat with a
firmament above holding the sun, moon, planets, and stars.  The earth
was the center of the universe and God would open the firmament every
once in a while to let the water fall to the earth as rain.  The church
fathers were likely not flat earthers, and Augustine was likely fighting
flat earth literalists when he made his recommendation to not use the
Bible as a source for understanding nature.  The Greeks had estimated
the circumference of the earth a couple of centuries before Christ was
born, and the church fathers were likely all geocentrists, and were
likely not flat earthers.
At the time that the Christian Church was forming the geocentric
cosmology excluded the flat earth of the Bible, so the early church had
already relegated the flat earth claims in the Bible as symbolic or
metaphorical.  They already understood that the Bible could not be taken
literally.  The reason for Saint Augustine's admonishment about denial
of nature was not mentioned by Augustine, but it was likely flat-earth
Christians that had not yet accepted the Greek cosmology.  Even though
the Greeks had estimated the circumference of the earth by physcial
geometric measurement a couple of centuries before Christ was born,
there were early Christian flat earthers.
My guess is that Ham isn't a geocentrist nor flat earther, but he is
still calling for his reformation.  Ham's reformation is needed because
most of the ID perps are old earth creationists.  When I started calling
the Discovery Institute's intelligent design scam artists "ID perps"
just before Dover hit the fan.  I noted that most of their victims in
the bait and switch scam that they had been running for around 2 years
likely wanted to tar and feather the ID perp scam artists (most of them
had dropped the issue instead of bend over for the switch scam).  I also
noted that if they ever were successful in recreating their imagined
Christian theocracy that they were likely to be the first up against the
wall after the establishment of the new order.  The AIG's call for a
reformation supports that notion.  When Dembski was forced to apologize
to his students in order to keep his job, after he told them that the
earth was likely older than indicated in the Bible and that the flood
may have been local, that was a warning that the ID perps would be the
first up against the wall in any theocracy that they might have been
able to create.  Most of their support has always been YEC, but most of
the ID perps were OEC and they were all stupid enough to think that they
could ride that tiger.  We are all lucky that the ID perps were all too
incompetent and dishonest to have succeeded with the mission that they
signed up for.
Ron Okimoto

It should be noted that the reformation started the 30 years war with
all it's religious abuses. It spawned the type of theocracies that the
founding fathers of the US were trying to prevent, and the ID perps
wanted such a renewal (recall Behe's claims that ID was equivalent
science to astrology as practiced during that period). They would have
been the first up against the wall in the theocracy that they claimed to
want to recreate. Like Dembski they may have been offered a chance to
recant, but my guess is that the option would not have been offered to
the ID perps that had been involved in running the bait and switch scam
on the YEC true believers. Nearly all the creationist rube victims of
the bait and switch have dropped the issue instead of bending over for
the ID perp's switch scam. Those victims likely have no love for the
scam artists that sold them the ID scam.

Ron Okimoto