Discussion:
Enough liquid water on Mars to cover the surface to a depth of 1 mile
(too old to reply)
RonO
2024-08-13 18:27:24 UTC
Permalink
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/12/science/mars-crust-water-reservoir-insight/index.html

If this is true could we colonize Mars? The article claims that
evidence is that deep in the martian crust water saturates cracks and
crevices. A whole lot of water. Mars lost it's atmosphere, but
apparently since there is no plate tectonics on Mars and the entire
crust is just shrinking and cracking as it cools, a layer of cracked up
crust exists 11 to 20 km below the surface that contains liquid water.

Since the mantle is still molten wouldn't you expect geothermal geysers
to reach the surface as this water came into contact with the hot
sections of the crust and mantle as crust continues to shrink and crack
up? Would you need active volcanos on the surface to have geothermal
geysers?

We have found living bacteria that apparently only replicate
infrequently in water staturated deep rocks on earth, so would life be
expected to have survived if it ever existed on Mars?

If the water exists we might make it available to colonists by crashing
an asteroid or a piece of one of Mars' moons into the surface of the
planet. My guess is that would generate volcanic activity and some of
the water would be forced back into the atmosphere or at least to the
surface. The Chicxulub impact was for a 6.6 km diameter asteroid and
fractured the Earth's crust down to 20 km.

Ron Okimoto
RonO
2024-08-20 18:50:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by RonO
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/12/science/mars-crust-water-reservoir-insight/index.html
If this is true could we colonize Mars?  The article claims that
evidence is that deep in the martian crust water saturates cracks and
crevices.  A whole lot of water.  Mars lost it's atmosphere, but
apparently since there is no plate tectonics on Mars and the entire
crust is just shrinking and cracking as it cools, a layer of cracked up
crust exists 11 to 20 km below the surface that contains liquid water.
Since the mantle is still molten wouldn't you expect geothermal geysers
to reach the surface as this water came into contact with the hot
sections of the crust and mantle as crust continues to shrink and crack
up?  Would you need active volcanos on the surface to have geothermal
geysers?
We have found living bacteria that apparently only replicate
infrequently in water staturated deep rocks on earth, so would life be
expected to have survived if it ever existed on Mars?
If the water exists we might make it available to colonists by crashing
an asteroid or a piece of one of Mars' moons into the surface of the
planet.  My guess is that would generate volcanic activity and some of
the water would be forced back into the atmosphere or at least to the
surface.  The Chicxulub impact was for a 6.6 km diameter asteroid and
fractured the Earth's crust down to 20 km.
Ron Okimoto
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240812160244.htm

Science Daily has an article on the proposed Mars water, but they claim
that it is too deep to tap into. My suggestion of crashing an asteroid
or piece of one of the moons could initiate vulcanic activity and bring
the water to the surface.

Ron Okimoto
William Hyde
2024-08-20 20:22:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by RonO
Post by RonO
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/12/science/mars-crust-water-reservoir-insight/index.html
If this is true could we colonize Mars?  The article claims that
evidence is that deep in the martian crust water saturates cracks and
crevices.  A whole lot of water.  Mars lost it's atmosphere, but
apparently since there is no plate tectonics on Mars and the entire
crust is just shrinking and cracking as it cools, a layer of cracked
up crust exists 11 to 20 km below the surface that contains liquid water.
Since the mantle is still molten wouldn't you expect geothermal
geysers to reach the surface as this water came into contact with the
hot sections of the crust and mantle as crust continues to shrink and
crack up?  Would you need active volcanos on the surface to have
geothermal geysers?
We have found living bacteria that apparently only replicate
infrequently in water staturated deep rocks on earth, so would life be
expected to have survived if it ever existed on Mars?
If the water exists we might make it available to colonists by
crashing an asteroid or a piece of one of Mars' moons into the surface
of the planet.  My guess is that would generate volcanic activity and
some of the water would be forced back into the atmosphere or at least
to the surface.  The Chicxulub impact was for a 6.6 km diameter
asteroid and fractured the Earth's crust down to 20 km.
Ron Okimoto
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240812160244.htm
Science Daily has an article on the proposed Mars water, but they claim
that it is too deep to tap into.  My suggestion of crashing an asteroid
or piece of one of the moons could initiate vulcanic activity and bring
the water to the surface.
Decades ago I was sent a short paper by the British Interplanetary
Society which proposed various ways of making mars eventually habitable.

One that I recall was the setting off of ten thousand ten-megaton bombs
in the regolith.

I ran a short climate simulation on the effect of the estimated
resulting atmosphere but, alas, it did not contain enough greenhouse
gases to keep the surface above freezing.

In fact, if CO2 is the main greenhouse gas, the amount require to make
Mars habitable also makes it uninhabitable. Nor can any such atmosphere
hold enough H2O to matter. Vast amounts of some neutral, stable, GHG
are required. ArNe2 would be perfect, if only it existed. CFCs possibly,
though they do eventually break down.


William Hyde
JTEM
2024-08-20 20:49:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Decades ago I was sent a short paper by the British Interplanetary
Society which proposed various ways of making mars eventually habitable.
One that I recall was the setting off of ten thousand ten-megaton bombs
in  the regolith.
https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/uranium-resources/military-warheads-as-a-source-of-nuclear-fuel

You could easily convert the nuclear material from those weapons into
nuclear fuel to power one or more domed/underground cities.

Terraforming Mars so we can live on the surface is insane. It's like
heating the outside in the water instead of just going inside using
the tiniest sliver of a percentage of the energy...

"Why go to Chicago if we can put the energy into moving Chicago here?"

Mars is habitable, if we adapt to Mars instead of trying to adapt Mars
to us...
Post by William Hyde
I ran a short climate simulation on the effect of the estimated
resulting atmosphere but, alas, it did not contain enough greenhouse
gases to keep the surface above freezing.
The lack of protection from a magnetic field is the real issue.

Humans are going to have to be inside anyway.
Post by William Hyde
In fact, if CO2 is the main greenhouse gas
Water is a real greenhouse gas. CO2 is not. Supposedly there's plenty
of water on Mars, under the surface, but you kind of need to warm
things up FIRST, else you're just creating glaciers...

Again: Mars is habitable providing we humans adapt instead of
insisting that Mars must adapt.
--
https://jtem.tumblr.com/tagged/The%20Book%20of%20JTEM/page/5
RonO
2024-08-21 00:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by RonO
Post by RonO
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/12/science/mars-crust-water-reservoir-insight/index.html
If this is true could we colonize Mars?  The article claims that
evidence is that deep in the martian crust water saturates cracks and
crevices.  A whole lot of water.  Mars lost it's atmosphere, but
apparently since there is no plate tectonics on Mars and the entire
crust is just shrinking and cracking as it cools, a layer of cracked
up crust exists 11 to 20 km below the surface that contains liquid water.
Since the mantle is still molten wouldn't you expect geothermal
geysers to reach the surface as this water came into contact with the
hot sections of the crust and mantle as crust continues to shrink and
crack up?  Would you need active volcanos on the surface to have
geothermal geysers?
We have found living bacteria that apparently only replicate
infrequently in water staturated deep rocks on earth, so would life
be expected to have survived if it ever existed on Mars?
If the water exists we might make it available to colonists by
crashing an asteroid or a piece of one of Mars' moons into the
surface of the planet.  My guess is that would generate volcanic
activity and some of the water would be forced back into the
atmosphere or at least to the surface.  The Chicxulub impact was for
a 6.6 km diameter asteroid and fractured the Earth's crust down to 20
km.
Ron Okimoto
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240812160244.htm
Science Daily has an article on the proposed Mars water, but they
claim that it is too deep to tap into.  My suggestion of crashing an
asteroid or piece of one of the moons could initiate vulcanic activity
and bring the water to the surface.
Decades ago I was sent a short paper by the British Interplanetary
Society which proposed various ways of making mars eventually habitable.
One that I recall was the setting off of ten thousand ten-megaton bombs
in  the regolith.
I ran a short climate simulation on the effect of the estimated
resulting atmosphere but, alas, it did not contain enough greenhouse
gases to keep the surface above freezing.
In fact, if CO2 is the main greenhouse gas, the amount require to make
Mars habitable also makes it uninhabitable. Nor can any such atmosphere
hold enough H2O to matter.  Vast amounts of some neutral, stable, GHG
are required. ArNe2 would be perfect, if only it existed. CFCs possibly,
though they do eventually break down.
The goal would not be to create an atmosphere, just make the available
water more accessible to anyone that would want to colonize the planet.
People might live on the surface for a while, but my guess is that the
largest habitats would eventually be constructed underground. It would
be like living in a space habitat, but you have all the raw materials
you need. We are talking about settlers that really want to leave earth
behind, and be independent. They probably will not have any support
from any major earth political entities because Mars has nothing that we
want except space to live away from earth. There isn't anything worth
trading over that distance unless the Martians invented new technologies
that Earth would be interested in.

The population bomb never went off. The dooms day prophecies have kept
declining over the last half century, and there may only be around 9
billion people around by 2050, and some projections are predicting that
the population may start to decline around that time. As the standard
of living increases people have fewer children. China wants to start a
program to get their citizens to have more kids because their work force
will be declining in numbers. Japan and Europe are having trouble
maintaining their workforce population. Pretty soon the only people
that will want to colonize Mars would want to do it for political or
religious reasons. Right now Mars has nothing that anyone wants. The
low UN population estimates have our population lower than it is now by
2100. We aren't worried about running out of oil, we are more worried
about burning too much of it.

This could be an answer to the Fermi paradox. Civilizations either
destroy themselves or become self contained, and can happily live in
their own system. There is no driving need to travel to other stars
when it would take so long, and promises so little.

https://populationmatters.org/news/2024/04/the-world-of-population-projections/

Ron Okimoto
Post by William Hyde
William Hyde
Kestrel Clayton
2024-08-21 15:44:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by RonO
Post by William Hyde
Post by RonO
Post by RonO
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/12/science/mars-crust-water-reservoir-
insight/index.html
If this is true could we colonize Mars?  The article claims that
evidence is that deep in the martian crust water saturates cracks
and crevices.  A whole lot of water.  Mars lost it's atmosphere, but
apparently since there is no plate tectonics on Mars and the entire
crust is just shrinking and cracking as it cools, a layer of cracked
up crust exists 11 to 20 km below the surface that contains liquid water.
Since the mantle is still molten wouldn't you expect geothermal
geysers to reach the surface as this water came into contact with
the hot sections of the crust and mantle as crust continues to
shrink and crack up?  Would you need active volcanos on the surface
to have geothermal geysers?
We have found living bacteria that apparently only replicate
infrequently in water staturated deep rocks on earth, so would life
be expected to have survived if it ever existed on Mars?
If the water exists we might make it available to colonists by
crashing an asteroid or a piece of one of Mars' moons into the
surface of the planet.  My guess is that would generate volcanic
activity and some of the water would be forced back into the
atmosphere or at least to the surface.  The Chicxulub impact was for
a 6.6 km diameter asteroid and fractured the Earth's crust down to
20 km.
Ron Okimoto
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240812160244.htm
Science Daily has an article on the proposed Mars water, but they
claim that it is too deep to tap into.  My suggestion of crashing an
asteroid or piece of one of the moons could initiate vulcanic
activity and bring the water to the surface.
Decades ago I was sent a short paper by the British Interplanetary
Society which proposed various ways of making mars eventually habitable.
One that I recall was the setting off of ten thousand ten-megaton
bombs in  the regolith.
I ran a short climate simulation on the effect of the estimated
resulting atmosphere but, alas, it did not contain enough greenhouse
gases to keep the surface above freezing.
In fact, if CO2 is the main greenhouse gas, the amount require to make
Mars habitable also makes it uninhabitable. Nor can any such
atmosphere hold enough H2O to matter.  Vast amounts of some neutral,
stable, GHG are required. ArNe2 would be perfect, if only it existed.
CFCs possibly, though they do eventually break down.
The goal would not be to create an atmosphere, just make the available
water more accessible to anyone that would want to colonize the planet.
People might live on the surface for a while, but my guess is that the
largest habitats would eventually be constructed underground.  It would
be like living in a space habitat, but you have all the raw materials
you need.  We are talking about settlers that really want to leave earth
behind, and be independent.  They probably will not have any support
from any major earth political entities because Mars has nothing that we
want except space to live away from earth.  There isn't anything worth
trading over that distance unless the Martians invented new technologies
that Earth would be interested in.
The population bomb never went off.  The dooms day prophecies have kept
declining over the last half century, and there may only be around 9
billion people around by 2050, and some projections are predicting that
the population may start to decline around that time.  As the standard
of living increases people have fewer children.  China wants to start a
program to get their citizens to have more kids because their work force
will be declining in numbers.  Japan and Europe are having trouble
maintaining their workforce population.  Pretty soon the only people
that will want to colonize Mars would want to do it for political or
religious reasons.  Right now Mars has nothing that anyone wants.  The
low UN population estimates have our population lower than it is now by
2100.  We aren't worried about running out of oil, we are more worried
about burning too much of it.
This could be an answer to the Fermi paradox.  Civilizations either
destroy themselves or become self contained, and can happily live in
their own system.  There is no driving need to travel to other stars
when it would take so long, and promises so little.
https://populationmatters.org/news/2024/04/the-world-of-population-
projections/
These days Mars colonization seems to be of interest mostly to those who
deal with unpleasant problems by imagining different but more exciting
problems. You know, the dingdongs who think Bitcoin is the solution to
widespread poverty and high-tech agricultural drones are the solution to
widespread hunger.

Admittedly, "Let's move to Mars!" is a more romantic challenge than
finding a way to live sustainably on our own planet, but it's not really
an answer. It's a much thornier problem than just "Build a big enough
rocket, load 500 people inside, head for Mars." We'd need far more
research and development to create sustainable human habitation on Mars
than we would here on Earth. (Assuming we can at all. Whether humanity
can survive indefinitely in one-third Earth gravity is an open question.)

Unless, of course, you think the richest 1% of 1% of 1% of the
population leaving the rest of us to perish is a feature and not a bug.
No wonder the technofascists are so hot for Mars colonization — they
expect the rest of us to drown in their waste so they can have their
nerdbro oligarchic ethnostate in space.

I'm still a space exploration enthusiast. We can learn a lot Up There...
but for the foreseeable future, we also need to survive Down Here.
--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]
Kestrel Clayton
I used to have a Kipling quote here,
but I'm not so fond of him any more.
Ernest Major
2024-08-21 21:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
In fact, if CO2 is the main greenhouse gas, the amount require to make
Mars habitable also makes it uninhabitable. Nor can any such atmosphere
hold enough H2O to matter.  Vast amounts of some neutral, stable, GHG
are required. ArNe2 would be perfect, if only it existed. CFCs possibly,
though they do eventually break down.
WikiPedia tells me that ArNe2 does exist; at 4K. I'd worry about what
making it stable at room temperature would do to the rest of chemistry,
but if one assumes that the rest of chemistry is unchanged then the next
question that comes to mind is whether ArNe2 is an anaesthetic like
several of the inert gases are.
--
alias Ernest Major
William Hyde
2024-08-22 20:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernest Major
Post by William Hyde
In fact, if CO2 is the main greenhouse gas, the amount require to make
Mars habitable also makes it uninhabitable. Nor can any such
atmosphere hold enough H2O to matter.  Vast amounts of some neutral,
stable, GHG are required. ArNe2 would be perfect, if only it existed.
CFCs possibly, though they do eventually break down.
WikiPedia tells me that ArNe2 does exist; at 4K.
And it's Ne2? That was just a guess, or even less than a guess.



I'd worry about what
Post by Ernest Major
making it stable at room temperature would do to the rest of chemistry,
I can faintly recall a derivation of the occupyable states for an
excited electron in Hydrogen. I don't think that number changes if h or
c hold different values. To give Ar an empty slot in its outermost
shell my guess is that you'd have to change the dimensionality of apace.
Maybe if one of the compact dimensions of Kaluza-Klein theory or string
theory became a little less compact that would suffice (and kill us all,
of course).
Post by Ernest Major
but if one assumes that the rest of chemistry is unchanged then the next
question that comes to mind is whether ArNe2 is an anaesthetic like
several of the inert gases are.
I didn't know that.

William Hyde
Ernest Major
2024-08-22 21:32:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernest Major
Post by William Hyde
In fact, if CO2 is the main greenhouse gas, the amount require to
make Mars habitable also makes it uninhabitable. Nor can any such
atmosphere hold enough H2O to matter.  Vast amounts of some neutral,
stable, GHG are required. ArNe2 would be perfect, if only it existed.
CFCs possibly, though they do eventually break down.
WikiPedia tells me that ArNe2 does exist; at 4K.
And it's Ne2?  That was just a guess, or even less than a guess.
I thought that you'd picked on ArNe2 because greenhouse cases have to be
at least triatomic (because you need bending modes for infra-red
absorption), any known triatomic gas is problematic in some fashion at
the concentrations necessary, and neon and argon are the commonest noble
gases.

With CFCs a question that comes to mind - at the concentrations required
in the Martian atmosphere is the equilibrium concentration of fluorine
and chlorine from their breakdown acceptable. (I suspect that it is, as
CFCs are extremely effective greenhouse gases.) At least one CFC
(halothane) is an anaesthetic, so there's that to take into account as well.
--
alias Ernest Major
William Hyde
2024-08-23 22:35:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ernest Major
Post by Ernest Major
Post by William Hyde
In fact, if CO2 is the main greenhouse gas, the amount require to
make Mars habitable also makes it uninhabitable. Nor can any such
atmosphere hold enough H2O to matter.  Vast amounts of some neutral,
stable, GHG are required. ArNe2 would be perfect, if only it
existed. CFCs possibly, though they do eventually break down.
WikiPedia tells me that ArNe2 does exist; at 4K.
And it's Ne2?  That was just a guess, or even less than a guess.
I thought that you'd picked on ArNe2 because greenhouse cases have to be
at least triatomic (because you need bending modes for infra-red
absorption), any known triatomic gas is problematic in some fashion at
the concentrations necessary, and neon and argon are the commonest noble
gases.
Exactly my line of guesswork.
Post by Ernest Major
With CFCs a question that comes to mind - at the concentrations required
in the Martian atmosphere is the equilibrium concentration of fluorine
and chlorine from their breakdown acceptable. (I suspect that it is, as
CFCs are extremely effective greenhouse gases.) At least one CFC
(halothane) is an anaesthetic, so there's that to take into account as well.
As the UV flux is considerably lower than that on Earth, the compounds
should last longer.

As we have created a very effective non-toxic greenhouse gas by
accident, I wonder what we could produce if we actually tried.

William Hyde
JTEM
2024-08-20 20:37:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by RonO
Science Daily has an article on the proposed Mars water, but they claim
that it is too deep to tap into.  My suggestion of crashing an asteroid
or piece of one of the moons could initiate vulcanic activity and bring
the water to the surface.
The water is within drilling range, here on earth, assuming it's even
there. They claim a depth of 11.5 to 20 km while the deepest oil well,
doing the Google thing right now, is put at 12 km.

So most of it is out of reach, yes...

Also depends on what kind of pressure it's under, no?

If it's under a lot of pressure then you're accessing a great deal more
than what the 12 km makes it sound like...

But what happened to the water at the poles?

Supposedly, at least three years ago they found LIQUID water down
where it shouldn't be -- too cold! The most brilliant answer, they
one JTEM offered, was LIFE! Biology generates heat so if there's
life down there, resting atop ice, it could be warming the surface
enough to produce a layer of liquid water.

Supposedly the heat generated is inversely related to the rate of
growth for the bacteria(?).

I would have guessed the opposite but nobody asks me anyway so you
cares?

The point is that maybe this suggests a very slow-growing bacteria or
Martian equivalent thereof?
--
https://jtem.tumblr.com/tagged/The%20Book%20of%20JTEM/page/5
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